 Andrew Rannells and the cast of 'The Book of Mormon' performs "I Believe" during the 65th Annual Tony Awards at the Beacon Theatre on June 12, 2011 in New York City. Richard Bushman: 'The Book of Mormon' is like looking into a fun-house mirror; the reflection is hilarious but not really youONLY ON THE BLOG: Answering today’s OFF-SET questions is Richard Bushman, the Howard W. Hunter Visiting Professor of Mormon Studies at Claremont Graduate University in California.  He teaches courses on Mormonism in its broad social and cultural context and on the history of religion in America. Bushman has taken an active part in explaining Mormonism to a broad public and in negotiating the tensions between Mormonism and modern culture. An emeritus professor at Columbia University, he received his Ph.D. in the History of American Civilization from Harvard. Among his books is the biography, “Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling.” He also serves as one of three general editors of the Joseph Smith Papers. Here’s why we have turned to Prof. Bushman: *While they have different political believes, GOP presidential candidates Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman are both Mormons who attended college in Utah. According to The Salt Lake Tribune, "For the past 167 years, Mormon candidates for U.S. president have suffered a parade of spectacular failures—often, but not always, related to public distrust of their religion." *The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has just launched a high-profile campaign with the slogan, "I’m a Mormon." *The mega-hit Broadway musical, “The Book of Mormon” –by South Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone, and “Avenue Q” co-writer Robert Lopez–just won nine Tony Awards, including Best Musical. On the CBS telecast, 6.9 million viewers saw Tony-nominated actor Andrew Rannells perform the deeply-infectious-yet-possibly-ironic anthem, “I Believe.” (You can see it by CLICKING HERE) And yes, millions of TV viewers have watched the fictional "Big Love" series and the reality-based "Sister Wives." It’s safe to say that we’re at a time when a lot of people are curious about Mormon history and beliefs. So what message about Mormonism is now being transmitted by the sometimes lewd, often profane and increasingly-popular musical? Prof. Bushman, the character of Elder Price, an American Mormon missionary in modern-day Uganda, questions his faith, but regains it while performing the song, “I Believe.” He sings, “I believe that God has a plan for all of us. / I believe that plan involves me getting my own planet.” Is that lyric based in Mormon belief? I have been living in California and Utah for the past year while the musical "The Book of Mormon” has been packing the house on Broadway. I have not seen the show, but I have read endless reviews, listened to parts of the score, and talked with Mormon friends who have seen it. Based on what I have heard, and the lyrics of Elder Price’s song, the musical gets a lot of laughs, but it is not meant to explain Mormon beliefs. Mormons experience the show like looking at themselves in a fun-house mirror. The reflection is hilarious but not really you. The nose is yours but swollen out of proportion. Take the issue of getting your own planet, for example. Elder Price talks about a planet for himself and one for Jesus. Those are not really core Mormon beliefs. Mormon scriptures and Church leaders don’t say anything about people getting their own planets. The idea is more like lore than doctrine. Mormons do believe in the principle of theosis, the doctrine that God wants humans to become like himself—in effect gods. That belief leads Mormons to speculate about creation. Will beings with god-like qualities have the powers to form earths? Perhaps, who knows? There is no fixed doctrine on the subject. Mormons themselves joke about the planet business. But they do take seriously that we may grow up to be like Our Father in Heaven. Here’s another lyric: “I believe that God lives on a planet called Kolob. / I believe that Jesus has his own planet as well. And I believe that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri. “ All based in Mormon doctrine? Does God live on a planet called Kolob? Again, pretty close, but not precisely accurate. The astronomical reflections of Abraham in one Mormon scripture do speak of God dwelling close to a planet named Kolob. The place of God’s dwelling registers only as a tiny detail in Mormon thinking, but the idea that He does have a dwelling place is of immense importance. Mormon theology differs radically from conventional Christianity in locating God in time and space. He is not outside creation as traditionally believed. He is part of the physical universe, a being like the God in Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel who could touch Adam’s finger with his own if He chose. One more: “And I believe that in 1978, God changed his mind about black people!” After years of excluding African-Americans, church president and Living Prophet Spencer W. Kimball did announce that he had received a revelation from God about opening the doors wider, right? Some things in the lyrics are pretty close to the truth. For over a century, the Church did deny the priesthood to blacks for reasons Mormons themselves did not understand: perhaps there was a doctrinal basis, perhaps it was a policy adopted by Brigham Young in an era when blacks were commonly excluded from many white activities. In 1978 Church president Spencer Kimball extended the priesthood to all worthy males, much to the relief of the Church membership. It was not a matter of God changing His mind, as they lyrics say; the Church always believed blacks would receive the priesthood some day. It was only a question of when. The Church is conservative in the classic sense of changing slowly, but it does change deliberately in its own good time. The main characters in the musical travel to a mission in Uganda and you did interrupt your studies at Harvard to serve as a missionary in New England and Canada. You have also held a number of positions within the LDS Church . Are you concerned that “The Book of Mormon” may be sending a mixed message to the general public about what Mormons believe?  Yes, I did leave college to serve a mission, and my experience then bears on my reaction to Price’s song. Specific doctrines aside, the lines that will most distress Mormons in the Price lyrics are the repeated phrase “just believe.” Poor Elder Price has had his confidence shaken and doesn’t know how to react to his dawning disbelief. All he can do is repeat over and over “just believe.” To prove himself valiant, he must turn off the lights and shut the door on his doubts. Price’s response to uncertainty leaves the impression that Mormons may be happy on the outside, but are hollow at the core. They recognize their beliefs are preposterous but stubbornly hold on. I suppose it seems obvious to many people that a moment’s reflection about personal planets, Kolob, and the Garden of Eden in Missouri will plant doubts. Any rational person in the modern world who thinks about such outlandish ideas for one second will see they are preposterous. Mormons can’t think about their faith; they must “just believe.” But for Mormons themselves, the process of just believing is not so simple. I had my Elder Price moment, as many Mormons do, but during my sophomore year at Harvard. Writing a paper on Nietzsche and Freud had raised lots of questions about religion in general. When I went off to Halifax to preach the gospel, I was pretty shaky in my belief. For three months I wrestled with questions about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Was it a hoax, a bold, fraudulent effort to create a myth? Had Joseph Smith hoodwinked his friends—and the rest of his followers including me? I studied everything and prayed hard for some kind of light. In time I arrived at a rational explanation that allowed for a miracle in the book’s production, but along the way I experienced something more important than the book itself. I caught a glimpse of a higher form of human flourishing, something forceful and ennobling which I can only call sacred. It was this encounter with a kind of elevated goodness in the book that won me over. For me “just believing” meant turning the light on, not turning it off. During the 2008 election, Barack Obama, John McCain and other candidates were asked specifically and constantly about their religious beliefs. Are you concerned that Mormonism could become an issue in the 2012 campaign? “The Book of Mormon” comes along just as two Mormon candidates rev up their campaigns for the presidency. Is all the attention embarrassing for Mormons? I am one who is pleased to have Mormonism in the spotlight. I don’t mind the ribbing we get, or the attacks from skeptics, or the evangelicals’ objections to Mormon presidential candidates. I like the feeling that we are all in this together, trying to reconcile religious belief, politics, and our conflicted views of policy. We all want to know how they can work together for the public good.  The theater-goers who leave “The Book of Mormon” and walk through Times Square will now find a big sign up in the lights with pictures of people who say “I'm a Mormon.” Wouldn’t it be wonderful if through this funny and outrageous show we got to know one another better? |
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#Debt commission co-chair Alan Simpson slams the "disappointing" debt deal, saying Washington is "dysfunctional." #cnn inthearena.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/04/deb…
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Mormons play an important role in the American fabric. Enough hating. Let's accept them and move along.
I agree.
I guess I had a bad experiance when they defeded a crooked sheriff that nearly killed a man in my town then terrorized him saying try would kill before "loosing a pension"
Oh please, I'm so tired of people claiming that we should just leave these religions that teach radical hateful views should just be left alone, and I dont just mean moroms but all organized religion.Mormon used to teach that being black was a curse from god and the "prophet" spencer kimball taught that native americans are a lost tribe from israel and there skin was dark because once again there were cursed by god but its ok because when native american children become mormon their skin turns white.Oh and by they way that was in 1960
Better express the same outrage at other Christian churches, too, Matt. Revealed today that Michele Bachmann's Lutheran Church says on their website that the Catholic Pope is the antichrist. WOW, now that's hateful.
May I ask to why you have to be so negative towards the church? Did you get excommunicated for doing something really bad?
listen to yourself: "That was in 1960". In case you have forgotten, 1960 was the peak of segregation in the south. You think Mormon's are racist? Maybe they were, but that saying is pretty mild to the lynchings and every other disgusting form of violent racism that was going on in this country at the time. Things change, and Mormon's change. Get over it.
Here's some qoutes from this wonderful scam..whoops i mean religion..
“And the skins of the Lamanites [Native Americans] were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.”
- Book of Mormon, Alma, chapter 3, verse 6
“The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.... At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents on the same reservation, in the same Hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.”
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference, Oct. 1960
Yea they sound like a great bunch...try not to stick your head in the sand..we all have questions about where we come from,whats our purpose here but this and all organized religions have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they have no answers what so ever.
"And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him."
-Genesis 4:15 (Old Testament)
If the Lord had done it once before, what makes this confusing? They were wicked and became cursed.
If Adam and Eve were our common parents...why the difference in colors? What, pray tell, is the purpose, means, way by which, all these differing shades came to be? We have WHITE white, and BLACK black and all sorts of shades in between.
If God had anything to do with the changing skin tone way back when, (and God as His Almighty Hand over all) then I bet He could have a smidge of influence over the 'changing' of skin now-a-days.
A quote from 1960... wow. Try looking at the people and church today. You'll see something entirely different. Plus an 80 year old man in 1960 was much more likely to be racist, even if it was unintentional. No one is claiming Mormon leadership to be perfect. You need to get over this.
David O. McKay was the LDS Church president in 1960 not Spencer Kimball. So don't quote him as a prophet in 1960. The quotes from S.W. Kimball as president in 1978 are a 180 degree turn from this. God didn't change his mind, as stated in the broadway play, God changed Kimball's mind.
the curse that God would not listen to them because they were being so wicked, the change of skin color was done so they could be distinguished. THE COLOR OF SKIN WAS NEVER A CURSE.
Move along? Sorry, the public needs to know the Mormon Church has it share of teachings like this: " And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them." Book of Mormon, 2nd Nephi, Chapter 5, Verse 21.
And what's your point?
2 Nephi 26:33 (Book of Mormon)
For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
Jacob 3:8 (from The Book of Mormon)
"Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers."
We're all filthy from sin. Skin color makes no difference in God's eyes – we're all brothers and sisters. Everyone needs Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon testifies of Christ, and our individual and collective need for Him.
if Mormons become "godlike" and have their own planet to rule, I can only hope they leave ours and go there. The sooner the better.
Great article. What a positive man with a great vision. All of us are learning more about Mormonism and more about ourselves.
are you a mormon?
No, I am not. I do have many friends who identify with being Mormon to varying degrees and I respect their beliefs and learn a lot from them. I grew up in the west. One of my best friends is a gay Mormon and he is one of the most loving and decent person I have ever met.
@paul rushing...this is not hate...You can't call people who ask questions "hate"....that is just being defensive....
As for the article above......here is the thing....THE BOOK OF MORMON musical is COMEDY and ENTERTAINMENT. It is not meant to be anything more than that.
This article however, is denying things the Joseph Smith and Brigham Young have said. To say that Mormons don't believe they can get their own planet, is an outright lie, and meant to mislead. One quote of many that comes to mind is this one..
********
"The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this." Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48: (In Mormonism, a Prophet speaks for God....and this man was a Mormon Prophet.)
*******
If the Mormon church is the only true church, as it claims to be, why is it so afraid of the truth.... suppressing and watering down it's own doctrine.....
S Sean, I don't think Paul was referring specifically to this article as a form of hatred, but rather echoing the general sentiments of this article. As for the rest of your comment, you demonstrate the form of hatred Paul is decrying.
A prophet speaks for God, that is true, but you have concluded that every single assertion by a prophet is God's word. This is not the case and is not Mormon belief. Prophets, like the rest of us, have the privelege of speculating or sharing what might be a personal opinion which is inspiring to them. Joseph Fielding Smith's quote above is part of the basis for our believing we might get our own planets, yet if you read the quote carefully, it actually says our spirit children will go to earths like this one. We do not know the details, but can only speculate. We believe this earth will be renewed and perfected and be our eternal habitation. It is thus only logical that our posterity will need new earths in order to go through the same experiences as us. Regarding Smith's quote, however, it is not canonized scripture, and can thus be summed up as the inspired musings of an inspired prophet. Mormons revere such musings, yet we are careful not to consider such musings as scripture unless there is an official ratification which renders it as such. This has only occured a few times in our history. Please consider the whole truth before you render our interpretations of it an "outright lie". Thanks.
Until the Gordon B. Hinckley era, Mormons really did consider the words of the prophets to be doctrine, especially when speaking from a pulpit. (And in reality, most Mormons still do believe that stuff deeply, though it is not "official" doctrine.) So, now that the modern Mormon leadership is trying to redefine the religion for general acceptance, they have reduced the power of their former prophets, saying that they were simply speculating or pointing out that they were only men, and therefore flawed.
I would argue that, in order to be acceptable to the mainstream, your leadership is diluting your theology and reducing the credibility of the position of president of the church (aka Prophet). Doesn't this disturb you at all? Doesn't it seem dishonest to allow people to keep believing what they have been taught for generations, even if the church doesn't "officially" purvey those ideas as theology?
This is a reply to AcceptanceNotAgreement,
I find it interesting that the body of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints is being questioned on that topic as well as the converse–namely that they are mindless, brainwashed people just following the crowd and saying, "just believe." A major part of Mormon doctrine is to allow a personal relationship to develop between a person and God. The LDS Church does not dictate to its members every facet of what they can or cannot believe. To do so would contradict their doctrine of free agency which is an integral part of their overall doctrine. Also, I find the idea that the leadership is diluting their theology to be more acceptable to the mainstream to be preposterous. The Mormons have never tried to be mainstream and have never tried to make themselves popular with the world population. Were they mainstream I think you yourself might find it easier to agree with their beliefs. Were they mainstream, Prop 8 in California would not have garnered so much publicity. No, their objective has been mainly to encourage conversation of their beliefs and try to present them and allow others to consider and accept or reject as their conscience dictates.
@AcceptanceNotAgreement
" Until the Gordon B. Hinckley era, Mormons really did consider the words of the prophets to be doctrine, especially when speaking from a pulpit. (And in reality, most Mormons still do believe that stuff deeply, though it is not "official" doctrine.)"
Who are you to declare what millons of Mormons consider to be doctrine? Perhaps your expereince in your family, but you really should get out more.
It's not that Mormons are watering down or rejecting those former prophets. We just believe that the modern day prophet, the one speaking TODAY, knows best for our time. Joseph Smith was put on the earth for his time, and President Thomas S. Monson was put here for OUR time.
So although we still read the words and take the good from former prophets, the prophet of today has always, and will always take precedence. It is not a watering down or something new – this has always been the case. The current prophet has always been the final say, not one who has died.
Well put Julie. Everything a prior prophet has said is not canonized into scripture for future generations.
For example; When the LDS Saints arrived to virgin Utah they had to quickly build a city, Brigham Young needed the women to run the stores, be accountants, and be doctors, while the men were used for manual labor. Specific instructions for a specific time. But, not doctrine to the 21st century.
Sean - are YOU a Latter-day Saint? Which, by the way, everyone, is the way we are to refer to ourselves. Mormon was prophet and the book of scriptures is named after him, but he is not whom we worship or follow. We are LATTER-DAY SAINTS.
So, Sean, are you?
That quote actually does NOT say that we get our own planet, but that the planets we create when we attain our celestial glory and godlike powers. Did God not create the planet we live on? Are we not HIS children. Then the quote is correct. But if we are not worthy and do not attain our celestial glory, we don't have to worry about that because we won't be creating our own planets and peopling them with our own offspring as our Heavenly Father has.
Epistles of Paul- "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of amilk, and not of strong meat."
S Sean, where in the article does it say that Mormon's don't believe they get their own planet? The article states that it isn't part of the actual doctrine of the church, but that Mormons do speculate that they will. The book you quoted "Doctrines of Salvation" is just that: one man's speculation (and he wasn't a prophet when he wrote that and there are many things the prophets have said that the Mormons don't include as part of their doctrine). If you ask Mormons if they believe they will get a planet, you'll get many different responses. Some will respond back in the affirmative, some will respond in the negative. Some will answer like Dr. Bushman, some will joke about it.
As a Mormon, the "get a planet" explanation of salvation doesn't register, at least not in those terms. The scriptures – Bible included – speak of "mansions" etc. for the righteous, along with some sort of exaltation and happy living in the presence of God. But picturing my own little planetary hideaway isn't part of the equation, at least for this LDS Church member.
Obviously, Ken, you haven't paid too much attention to the explanations of "exaltation". And Richard Bushman did NOT answer the question about getting our own planet. We are never taught that we would have our own planet but rather that we will be able to CREATE our own planets should we reach that level of exaltation. If THAT doesn't register with you, you need to go back and find out what position we will be in in the Celestial Kingdom.
Ken. That's the whole purpose for being on earth in the first place! You get to be a God and create your own planet with your many wives producing spirit children. I was taught this over, and over, and over, growing up Mormon. My great, great, grandfather, Isaac Morley, had at least eight wives, some say he had eleven. Isaac was also adopted, yes adopted, to Brigham Young, in a Temple ceremony that is no longer practiced. Men sealed to other men. One of Isaac's daughter was sealed to Joseph Smith, as one of his many wives.
Ether were you ever a member of the church? Be honest. Don't lie.
In my geneology of Mormons we were never taught what Ether claims. But, my family was not allowed to practice plural marriage either, so maybe different interpretations from different families?
Either case, it's not Mormon doctrine today.
Worlds may not mean planets. Be careful when you interprete you own doctrine, don't have a stiff neck. Believe and hope all things are possible so that you may have a broader understanding line upon line and precept upon precept.
This doctrine of becoming gods, for which the LDS are ridiculed, while generally unknown to present day Catholics and Protestants, was in reality part of the heritage of the Christian Church of the first millennium. They believed that salvation meant “becoming a god.” Christianity, from about the second century on, has apostatized and gotten it wrong on this issue. The idea that man might become as God–known in Greek as theosis or theopoiesis – may be found virtually everywhere, from the New Testament through the writings of the first four centuries. It seems that if one’s soteriology (belief in salvation by Jesus Christ) cannot accommodate a doctrine of human divinization, then it has rejected the heritage of the early Christian church and departed from the faith of first millennium Christianity. The Mormon church claims to be a restoration of Christ’s original Church, so it naturally would have that belief.
@Grace and others: Grace has a great point! In the NeOld Testament, Psalms 82:6, it reads: "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." - In the New Testament, in John 10:33-36, some people took up stones to throw at Jesus. He asks them why. They reply that he has blasphemed by calling himself the Son of God, thereby making himself a God. He replies by quoting the verse from Psalms I just quoted...it says, "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" In other words, Grace was absolutely correct. The very Bible that we read teaches that Jesus approved of and quoted the Old Testament teachings (referring to them as "law"), that the recipients of God's word are also "gods...the [children] of God". What is so offensive about this doctrine??
About the same thing as some Baptists thinking they'll get wings in heaven. Sure, some may believe it for some reason....go figure if it's strange or not.
Any fair examination of truth always requires a study of both sides of an issue. Please understand that arguments against Mormons are based mainly on obscure quotes, sometimes inaccurate, all taken out of context purposely to maximize confusion, and then accompanied by the deceptive “explanations” of those who are strangely consumed by an urgent need to tear us down. Does that sound like a formula for finding out truth? And because many of these quotes are speculative, anyway, and were therefore never included in LDS Church canon, they don’t always represent our beliefs.
You may want to know what all this fuss is about. Perhaps you are interested in learning more. You can get the other side of the story at mormon.org. So, why not balance your exploration of Mormonism by studying what we believe from those who believe it – from the source? Learn what we really believe from us, not from those who don’t understand us (because you will then only learn their misunderstandings), and not from those who anxiously seek to misrepresent what little they do know (because they are trying to deceive you). You’ve heard them mock and insult us the way atheists mock and insult you. Does that seem right or Christian to you? There is a better way. Give us a fair chance. You may be delightfully surprised at what you learn.
For example, carefully check out mormon.org/jesus-christ/ and ask yourself if the Jesus we believe in is not the same Christian Jesus you believe in, and maybe even a little more Christian than that. Ask yourself if the things we teach do not help you gain a better understanding of the immense magnitude of God’s love for you. You may come to the conclusion, as do many other non-Mormons, that we know love better than anyone. And since God is love, what might that tell you about how well we can help you get to know God? You may actually find answers to questions no-one else has been able to answer for you. We get that a lot.
Did you know that though we believe we are the true church of Jesus Christ, that He has personally brought back to the earth His original church organization and leads it today through His divinely restored priesthood authority, and that therefore, naturally, all other churches are missing one thing or another – most importantly, all others are lacking His priesthood authority – though we believe this, we teach only love and respect for all other religions? Though a few of our younger members may still be working on improving their manners, we don’t mock the beliefs of others, insult them or deceptively try to make them appear evil. In fact we believe that God loves all His children and understands every stumbling block they face. He is patient as they learn and grow. We believe there is a lot of good in all churches and religions. And we certainly don’t think that those of other churches and religions are all are going to hell.
Consider this: if Mormons also believe in the Bible (which we very strongly do, maybe more literally than most), perhaps it all just comes down to how one chooses to interpret the Bible. But how can you know whose interpretation is correct? There are, after all, hundreds of widely accepted interpretations, all of them done by intelligent scholars, which have led to hundreds of respected Christian sects, none of which agree on everything, each one claiming to be right. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has brought something a little bit different to the discussion, something new and unusual. That’s why all the attention is on us.
We testify that God has made a unique promise to you to help you sort through all the confusion. It’s in the Bible. It’s also in the Book of Mormon. Perhaps you’ve already discovered it. It requires that you put all your trust in God. This promise is that God can lead you by His Spirit, the Holy Ghost. He can reveal His divine knowledge to you personally. And He promises He will, if you put all your faith in Him – not in what any person tells you, not in histories, traditions or orthodoxies, not in any of the philosophies of men or their creeds (all things which Jesus warned against) – but only in Him.
God promises you that if you will study His Word – and do it with an open heart, without prejudice, with a sincere desire to know and while humbly making a personal commitment with Him to do His will and always keep His commandments – and if you then ask Him to confirm the truth of His Word to you personally, with faith in Jesus Christ, while trusting and believing in His love for you, His desire for you to know the truth, and in His power to make truth known in a way that cannot be mistaken or confused, He will manifest the truth of it to you by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost you can know the truth of all things.
I’ve done this regarding the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I’ve asked God if His Word in each of these books is true, and He has revealed His truth to me. I can therefore share it with you. I testify in the name of Jesus Christ that our Heavenly Father lives, and that He knows you and loves you. I testify that Jesus Christ is His Son, our Savior and Redeemer, who took upon Himself the sins of the world. Jesus conquered sin and death so that we could be saved in the Kingdom of His and our Father. I testify that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are both truly God’s Word, not necessarily perfect or infallible, but true testaments of Jesus Christ. I testify that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God’s true church upon the earth today. I testify that He continues to call prophets, and that a true prophet leads His church today under His direction. I know these things are true by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost. You, too, can know these wonderful truths, to your – and His – great eternal joy.
Allow an opposing viewpoint after that rather long-winded testimony (which I have read elsewhere verbatim, Mr. Marlow). We don't all live with the convictions of a Peter Marlow. In fact, there are those of us who once lived the Mormon lifestyle in full. Mission, temple marriage, positions of leadership. We have come to know in our hearts that the Mormon church is not led by a prophet, the Book of Mormon is not a divinely translated scripture and prophets Smith and Young were certainly not led in any way to restore some measure of a needed gospel in the fullness of times.
Mormonism is the inspiring work of man, revised and added upon as decades of changing Mormon leadership bury the old and rebrand the new. It has its wonderful points on the exterior and its dark secrets within. It used to be that the largest picture in Mormon chapels was of the founder Joseph Smith. That changed when it became abundantly clear there was a disconnect between LDS and Christianity. Mormons want to be see as Christian. They have their own distinct way of imagining Jesus Christ. Mormonism just doesn't jive with the concepts of Christianity so they might be best described as quasi-Christian.
One thing is certain. Mormonism is not the only true religion on earth recognized by a creator of heaven and earth. I'll bank that certain against Mr. Marlow's convictions any day of the week, including Sunday.
All the evidence in the world pointed to the continued enslavement of God's people by Pharaoh. What hope did they have? Yet God, through Moses, set them free.
By miracles no less profound than the parting of the Red Sea, The Lord God in 1830 restored His true church to the earth through the prophet Joseph Smith. Though your claims to the contrary may be very persuasive and convincing, they are only the words of a man, and all men are fallible. The testimony of the Holy Ghost which confirms all truth is more persuasive still. The Holy Ghost allows each one of us to know absolute truth with absolute certainty.
I have experienced receiving, and continue to receive, a sure knowledge of the truth by the Holy Ghost. God is telling me that many of the ideas held today by archeologists, scientists, and historians can and will change. It always has. It always will. So much of what men believe is based on assumptions, anyway. They believe what they want to believe. But the truth of God never changes. It will outlive the wisdom of men. What joy it is to know and trust God, to know that for God, and therefore for those who love Him and have faith, all things are possible.
God invites all of us to put Him to the test. Find out for yourself. Read and study the Book of Mormon with an open heart, with faith in Him, and ask Him if it is indeed a true witness of Jesus Christ. I did this 34 years ago. God confirmed to me that yes, it is true. And that knowledge has allowed me to find a very fulfilling and lasting happiness, a life of happiness I could never have imagined for myself. The Bible and the Book of Mormon in one hand, declare together His truth that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer. Jesus lives! He is the Risen Lord!
Don’t believe because of what I say. I am only a man. Go directly to God yourself and seek your answer from Him, only Him. He loves you. I have absolute confidence that He will lead you to His eternal truth.
sfcanative,
First of all, good job, that he bore his testimony, long winded as you call it, but from the heart. Please don't use the word"we" when you are talking about "those who have lived the life of a Mormon and find it to not be true". That is just inappropriate! I am a Mormon, and can't believe someone like yourself would put this. Obviously, you have kept yourself from recieving the truth? I know this church is true. You can't nit pick everything about it. The Lord intended us to not know everything, to prove our faith. It definetely was inspired and brought back through a man called from the Lord. There are no secrets. Only someone with such hate and anger would post something like this, to try and stir people up against our church. But I'm sorry sfcanative, his work will go forth, through his church, the church with the fulness of the gospel with or without you. But don't try and discourage people from finding the truth, just because you cannot see it anymore. I know the church is true, and it has and will bring me the happiness God intends for me to have. I'm sorry you don't have it anymore.
As a life-long member(50+ yrs) and hopefully regarded as faithful, I found a glaring issue with your post......Pictures haven't been displayed in our LDS Chapels since I can remember, much less a picture of Joseph Smith. If there is ANYTHING in the chapel, it is of Jesus Christ. You will find pictures and depictions of scriptural stories in the hallways, used to teach a principle to those who recognize the scene. Please note that I am a military brat as well as a career military retiree and thus have been to many places, seen many chapels and just haven't seen a picture like you describe. If you insist that your assertion is true, please provide the name and place of the chapel and the date you saw it and I am certain we can resolve the matter.
How sad that you have lost the ability to receive the blessing of the Spirit in decerning the truth. If we spend too much time in trying to understand what MAN is saying we lose the ability to understand what the SPIRIT is teaching.
It has been my sad observation that too many people who have once been part of the fold and go their own way, do so because of pride. Many times an unresolved departure to gospel doctrine causes guilt and then anger. Unwilling to humble themselves, they find "reasons" to turn away from the truth. That anger festers like a wound left uncleansed and turns it's self into bitterness. I invite you to come back to the fold, to shine light on the darkness and clean your wounds, how ever painful that might be. Do not add more dirt to your injuries and make it worse. Come back! It's never too late!
The trouble is, the feelings of the "Spirit" are subject to interpretation. There are people with differing belief systems who receive spiritual witnesses that their beliefs are true, just like Mormons. However, those beliefs differ from one another. Is a Holy Ghost really contradicting itself by telling both people that their belief is true? Or is one of them misunderstanding their feelings? And how do Mormons know it's not them?
sfcanative:
What purpose do you feel that this statement serves?
In fact, there are those of us who once lived the Mormon lifestyle in full. Mission, temple marriage,
positions of leadership.
I am a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I grew up Catholic. I am sure that you are aware of the scandals that rocked that church in the last 15 years (I converted prior to that). Each priest who engaged in the heinous acts could surely have stated that prior to the acts " In fact, there are those of us who once lived the Catholic lifestyle in full. " Marriage aside, they attended seminary and held positions of leadership.
Faith is a current lifestyle, not a "been there, done that" experience.
Thank you for your service in whatever callings you fulfilled, but do not point to them as a foundation of "knowing better" than any who are currently serving.
BP – I suppose you could say that the Spirit is open to interpretation, but may I offer an alternative possibility? I believe that God guides us through life in the ways that fill His purposes for us and the world. I believe that the Spirit always tells us the truth, but only what we are ready to hear. For example, if Billy Graham were to ask God if he should join the Mormon Church, I believe the answer would be "No, you are doing what I want you to do where I want you to be doing it." or something along those lines. I admit I might be wrong about this, but Mr. Graham has influenced many people to improve their lives and their relationship with God. There have been many preachers who asked and the answer they received was, "Yes, join the Mormon Church". or something to that effect. Many of them may have asked further, "then what will I do for a living since I won't be a paid minister?" Whatever God had in store for them, it obviously wasn't to continue in the paid ministry, because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not have paid ministry. That did not stop them from doing what God asked. I hope I am always humble enough to follow His plan for me and willing enough to ask him what that is and strong enough to do it, even if it is hard. I have many examples to follow that have done so.
@BP
The Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) testifies of the all truth. If you follow a true principle you can feel the Spirit and know it is right. So, there are many spiritual people that follow the Spirit in many religions and forward paths.
Such people can easily recognize the Spirit too if they visit the LDS with open heart.
Right on the money!!
Well said Peter. People have a right to disagree and believe what they will. I believe the Book of Mormon to be scripture, and that as Joseph Smith has stated, a man can grow closer to God by studying the Book of Mormon than other other book. (paraphrasing).
If you haven't read it and wonder what all the fuss about the Book of Mormon is, sit down and read it. Pay attention to what the book is about; as it's not about history, it's not about native americans or mayans. It's about how a man/woman can grow closer to our Heavenly Father. Reading the Book of Mormon will bring peace and happiness into your life like no other book can. Read it, I dare you.
Right on I agree!!!
Well said.....All I can add to that is Amen.
Excellent Testimony – could not have said it better. what1ever – the religious teachings create that community and are the foundation of all.
One minor point, I don't know too many of my fellow Saints who believe we will get only one planet. The way I understand it, our holdings will be as extensive in our spheres as our Father's currently are in His. We will rule them as vassals to the Father and to Christ.
Yes! That's what I was thinking. I will get my own universe!
Me too! I always assumed a whole universe. of course, to get an "Earth," (or a flowerpetal) first you have to create the universe...
The Protestant Reformation was based on the idea that the Cathjolic church had strayed from the doctrines and organization established by Chrsit and the spostles, and was no longer authoritative; it claims its authority largely through the Bible and the concept of "priesthood" being bestowed on all believers in the Bible.
The Catholic Church asserts that their church possesses authority inherited from the original Christian Church led by Peter, Paul and the other apostles, and that Protestant chuches have cut themselves off from God's authority when they cut themselves loose from the Catholic Church.
At the time the LDS Church was established in 1830, there were a number of churches in America that took the position that both Catholics and Protestants were wrong, and that the original form and substance of the Church established by Christ needed to be restored to earth for there to be a valid church. However, the LDS Church was the only one among them that asserted that God had sent resurrected ancient prophets and apostles–John the Baptist and Peter, James and John–to actually ordain Joseph Smith and his assisstant, Oliver Cowdery, with the same authority from God that was held by those ancient leaders.
The most fundamental purpose of the LDS Church is to RESTORE original Christianity to mankind.
For that reason, Mormons explain some of the discrepancies between their teachings and those of Catholics and Protestants as restorations of doctrines that existed among early Christians but were abandoned by Catholicism and thus lost to the Protestants. In this category is the doctrine of "theosis", man becoming like God, a doctrine that is still taught by the Eastern Orthodox churches! While Catholics and Protestants argue this shows how far Mormons have strayed from Christianity, Mormons argue it is exactly the opposite.
A lot of Catholic and Protestant criticism of Mormonism centers on Mormon rejection of some creedal descriptions of the Trinity. But they should understand that Mormons specifically embrace the existence of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as three separate persons, an emphatic part of the Nicene Creed. This is a point that many Christians seem to forget, and adopt various heresies like Modalism and Docetism, which deny the separateness of the 3 persons, or deny the physical body and suffering of Christ. The Bible is emphatic about the physical nature of the resurrected Christ who is in heaven and will descend from heaven, but many Christians seem to think Christ's body is in a closet somewhere, not actually being lived in.
Mormons also embrace the doctrine that all 3 persons are unified in their actions and purposes. It is a view called Social Trinitarianism and is embraced by some Protestants, especially theologians who support the thesis of the Open God who actually experiences emotions like love, especially between the Father and the Son. These theologians acknowledge that the idea inserted into the Creeds that the unified God is without body, parts or passions (emotions) was imported from Neo-Platonism, not the Bible, and note how this utterly contradicts the explicit teachings of John 3:16 ("God so loved the world . . ."). Those who criticize Mormons for subordinating the Son to the Father forget that this was also the reason the Eastern Orthodox split from the Catholics.
The plain fact is that very few Protestants or Catholics have a clear idea what the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity is. If it is a belief that must be understood correctly to enter heaven, not many of them will make it, indeed they can barely even state it correctly, while "understanding" its inherent contradictions ("3 = 1") is even more difficult. In practice one never sees a Protestant minister telling people that they must recite the Nicene Creed and demonstrate they understand it before they can be baptized or otherwise be declared saved. Thus, those who criticize Mormons for rejectiing the Greek philosophy in the Nicene Creed are demonstrating a basic level of hypocrisy about their own followers.
Ah, the clever mormon spin machine is alive and well!
As you say yourself, your Godhead and the Christian Trinity are not that far removed. Yet, on one hand Catholics and Protestants alike accept that our human understanding is limited and that the Trinity, while it must exist for the bible to be cohesive, is mysterious and incomprehensible. On the other hand, Mormons scoff at the Trinity as "irrational" and say that their Godhead eliminates the contradictions of the Trinity, making their philosophy the obvious and rational solution to the pesky problem of having 3 deities and yet being monotheistic. (And yet, if you point out flaws in their other doctrines they will turn to the defense of "God is mysterious"). I think that Trinity vs. Godhead is mostly a matter of semantics, though Godhead leans a little closer toward embracing the Polytheism side of the spectrum ("united in purpose" does not really make for a singular God).
Oh, also, I reject the notion of a great apostasy (therefore, there is nothing that need be restored). Jesus said "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." There is much about the Bible that is convoluted and unclear to a lay person such as myself, but when the Word is straight from His mouth, it is pretty hard to argue against.
Can you imagine being Jesus as he was standing next to God in Joseph's vision, admitting that he had spoken a false prophecy? Boy, I bet His face was Red!
@AcceptanceNotAgreement – FAIL! When I compare your remarks with the well thought out and reasoned remards of Raymond Tackashi Swenson all I can say is FAIL! Is that all you got, bud? How embarrassing for you!
Read about 4 verses before the one you quoted and about 3 after ... in fact read the whole chapter .... this is a verse out of context. When read together as written it becomes clear that the Savior is speaking to Peter concerning revelation .... not a many think about the church being founded on Peter ... why would he found His church on one of His disciples?
Yes a very important scripture. What is meant by "this rock". Understanding symbolism in the bible helps answer this question. Rock is symbolic for "revelation". The church would not be built on peter, but on revelation through peter as the head apostle, and presiding authourity, after the death of the saviour. The keys, the authority to receive this revelation was lost when all the apostles were killed. Thus revelation "this rock" ceased. This is what was restored when jesus and his father "revealed" themselves to joseph smith in 1820. Later, peter, james and john, the original presiding authority, appeared to joseph smith and restored the priesthood authority to the earth
Some Protestants like to attack Mormons by claiming Mormons believe in a "different Jesus". That claim is intentionally misleading. Mormons honor the Bible as scripture, written by men who were appointed by God, and therefore authoritative, even while being realistic about the fact that an accurate translation of a text written 2000 to 3000 years ago can be fruaght with unintentional errors, as well as biases of the translators. If you look closely at definitions of Biblical "inerrancy" by various Protestants, many of them will acknowledge the problems created by translation. The difficulty of understanding the 400 year old English of the King James Bible illustrates the precarious nature of translations from ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
Mormons, notwithstanding that, believe that the basic narrative of the Bible depicts true events, including the miracles performed by Christ, and his death and resurrection. This is something that many modern Protestant ministers are not sure about. If a Southern Baptist reads the Gospels and believes the depiction of Jesus there, he should understand that SO DO MORMONS.
Some critics of Mormonism assert that a "different Jesus" appeared in the Americas circa 34 AD, as told by the Book of Mormon. However, the Book of Mormon asserts it is the exact SAME Jesus who lived and died and was resurrected in Galilee and Judea. The claim of some Protestants that an event involving Christ could not have happened unless it was in the Bible amounts to a worship of the Bible rather than worship of Christ, the Son of God, who can go anywhere in the universe, and certainly should have no trouble with a few thousand miles to the Americas. After all, if Christ is God, and God is Omnipresent (Nicene Creed), He is certainly present in the Americas as much as He was in Judea. Protestants are big on proclaiming that, as Christ promised, "Wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." So they must believe Christ is present, in some sense, in the US right now. If so, then why not in 34 AD?
The fact is that the Book of Mormon is emphatic about the central nature of Christ's atoning sacrifice in the salvation of mankind. It is just as emphatic as the New Testament. If it were regarded simply as a collection of serrmons about Christ, there could hardly be any objection to what it says. But Protestants and Catholics object that it puts these sermons in the mouths of prophets who lived from 600 BC to 400 AD in the Americas. What the objection boils down to is that they don't want to hear any more from God about Jesus. Apparently they can barely stand to read the Bible, so reading any more about Jesus from other prophets is intolerable. One wonders how much they truly are dedicated to the living Christ if they have no interest in hearing more from Him. One can question whether the sermons are authentic, but most Protestants never reach that question; they reject any new knowledge about Christ a priori.
Good job, Raymond Takashi Swenson!! (Hey, I just agreed with you on T&S tonight too!)
The Bible describes people, places, objects and events that often can be discovered in our modern era. We have discovered every coin mentioned in the Bible, every weapon, many of the cities and ancient references to some of the people. We usually know where the events were physically located and can visit those locations. In contrast, no coin, no weapon, no location that is exclusive to the Book of Mormon has ever been located. The whole thing that isn't plagiarized from the Bible is a work of fiction and Mormonism is a lie.
Of course this is a criticism of the Book of Mormon having "no evidence" but the fact is, there are plenty of artifacts from civilizations that existed in America, including some startling similarities with Book of Mormon stories. But the argument is moot, since it is false to claim that every artifact of the Bible existed. The Bible, for example mentions unicorns. There is also no other historical record of Moses or any other leader who led the Jews to freedom from the Egyptians. The simple fact is, the Bible is accepted because it is old, and some of the stories take place in known locations. But you can't prove the Bible any more than you can prove the Joseph Smith story because it occurred in New York, a known location.
Amen, and amen.
I always enjoy the balanced comments that Prof. Bushman gives. He simply understands people in and out of the church. I am happy to see that there are people like him that can bridge us. It is the understanding of Mormons that we are not part of the world and yet we are to reach out to them. Understandably, some of us might want to brand the "world" as evil in hopes of having protection from this "world." However, as LDS members, we are to reach out and teach about ourselves just as much as non-members want to express their opinion about our religion.
Surely, not everyone agrees with our beliefs, even to the point of being combative on the subject, and this is understandable as well. Yet, understanding this aversion from our detractors is the first step for peaceful exchanges between us.
"Just believe" is counter to LDS doctrine. A common phrase within the Church is, "No one can live on borrowed light." In fact, when a candidate for membership is interviewed before baptism, they are asked whether they have proven for themselves. Here are a couple of citations from the actual The Book of Mormon that illustrate this.
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"45 And this is not all. Do ye not suppose that I aknow of these things myself? Behold, I testify unto you that I do know that these things whereof I have spoken are true. And how do ye suppose that I know of their surety?
46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me." (Alma 5)
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"3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Moroni 10)
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Because I was born into this Church, I went out to test other religions and beliefs to find out for myself. Because of this and especially because of God's answers to my own prayers that I believe. It was through Christ's atonement - as I received it through this Church - that my life was saved and my soul healed. " 6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell." (2 Nephi)
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There is no "just believe" in this Church.
Just out of curiosity, has the Holy Spirit ever given anyone a Truth that didn't require belief to be true?
I don't know of any matter which depends on one's belief for its truth. It is or it isn't.
I think the "Just Believe" song would have been more "Mormon" if the word "believe" was changed to "know". Mormons don't say they believe these things - they say they "know" them. In testimony meeting each month, they say "I know this church is true" and they teach their kids to say the same thing from a young age (even before they have a clue what that means).
But this knowledge (or belief) is based on a feeling. How does a burning in the bosom or a peaceful feeling prove something to be true? Many people feel what Mormons call the "spirit". It's just a feeling. I've felt the warm tingles while watching a movie, listening to music, and gardening, but that doesn't make the movie or song "true" or gardening the "right" thing to do. I think you have to look at the facts to know truth. Feelings can tell us how we feel about an idea, but not whether something is true, right?
I disagree. The "feeling" cones after a trial of your faith. Most who question the church do so with an intent on finding a reasonable, rational, logical explanation of how it all works. Does God really exist? Did he speak to man in Biblical times? Does he continue to do so today? Sure, we can pick apart details of any religion, and "prove" it false, but the fact is, the church did not come into being in a vacuum. The fact that there are testimonies throughout the history help balance out why one would believe an unreasonable story as it was unfolding. The church grew from a small group of families to thousands in just a few years. Smith's story was clearly compelling to those people. It continues to compel today as it grows and expands to a world religion. That "feeling" does strengthen members, but it does not transcend logic to the believer, rather it confirms it.
I've long been puzzled by these claims that Latter-day Saint doctrine is that each of us will have our own planet some day. Our scriptures tell us that those of us who become joint-heirs with Christ will dwell in God's presence, not away from him on our own separate planet.
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"92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;
93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever.
94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn [i.e. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;" (D&C 76)
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If anyone can tell me the genesis of that spurious separate-planet claim against the Latter-day Saints, pls email me at manaen@ymail.com.
Can someone not rule over a kingdom yet have access to the presence of the Father and his Son simultaneously? I think many people over think doctrines that are simple and beautiful. Think of the whole 'Having our own planet' issue in these terms. Just as a baby can grow to become a king and rule over kingdoms, why can't we (all of us being newborns or babies in a spiritual sense) one day inherit kingdoms (call them planets or whatever you may) and grow and progress eternally? Doesn't seem too difficult of a concept to grasp if you ask me.
@Craig:
CNN.com prohibits hate speech, and linking to hate speech is also prohibited. By linking to that site, you identify yourself as both an anti-Mormon and an anti-Semite. Those two world views do indeed have much in common.
I don't understand the claim that the LDS belief that we can become Gods is somehow strange or even not biblical. Romans 8:16-17 seems pretty clear to me. Besides, what kind of God witholds things from his children so as to not allow them to enjoy everything he enjoys? Why would anyone worship such a being? Are you telling me that if I believe in Jesus Christ and do everything God ever asked of me, the best I can do is spend an eternity being inferior to him, never having what he has? What's the point of that? I just don't believe that a loving God would want to keep us in a box, in ignorance. I have to believe that he would want his children to reach their full potential, just as he did.
I don't believe we would be inferior to him, I think we would be equal to him. If I am righteous, marry in the Temple, and do all the things asked of me by God then after I die, after the resurrection, I and my wife will become Gods, create our own Universe, have our own children, etc. And I believe God withholds things from us so we can make our own choices, so we can live our own life, if he revealed everything to everybody and had us all do the right things every time it would not be a test, a trial to see if we are worthy to become the Gods we are meant to be.
I stopped reading this commentary on a broadway show at "I have not seen the show." *eyeroll*
I don't see why he would be obligated to see it. After all, he didn't seek the opportunity to comment on the show; the poster of this entry stated that they turned to Prof. Bushman to comment on this topic, not the other way around.
The purpose of the article is to answer questions about Mormon beliefs, it's not a review of the play.
I sat in RLB's classroom of American History at BYU in 1962. Fascinated with his scholarship and delivery. I've read all of his books. He's no amateur. Subject matter was irrelevant. Indeed, 'for me, "just believing" meant turning the light on, not turning it off.'
About Kolb
I hate to nit-pick a nice interview, but either Professor Bushman misspoke or there was a small transcription error. While it is understandable that the interviewer asked about a “planet” named Kolob, I do not think that Professor Bushman said, or meant to say, that Kolob is a planet. It is quite clear from Chapter 3 of the Book of Abraham, in the Pearl of Great Price, which is a book of scripture to Mormons, that Kolob is a star, and not a planet. It is also clear from that scripture that God does not live “on” Kolob, as the interviewer asked, and Professor Bushman could have said so in his answer. Instead, Abraham saw that Kolob was the star “nearest the throne of God” and the Lord told Abraham that Kolb “is near unto me.”
The Church’s Guide to the Scriptures defines “Kolob” thus: “The star nearest the throne of God.” (Abr. 3:2–3, 9).
Anyone who is interested in Kolob should read Chapter 3 of Abraham. Here is a URL for it: http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/3?lang=eng
Lastly, as Professor Bushman implies, Kolob itself is something that Mormons hardly ever think about. The important point is that God has a place in our universe.
I hate to nit-pick a nice interview, but either Professor Bushman misspoke or there was a small transcription error. While it is understandable that the interviewer asked about a “planet” named Kolob, I do not think that Professor Bushman said, or meant to say, that Kolob is a planet. It is quite clear from Chapter 3 of the Book of Abraham, in the Pearl of Great Price, which is a book of scripture to Mormons, that Kolob is a star, and not a planet. It is also clear from that scripture that God does not live “on” Kolob, as the interviewer asked, and Professor Bushman could have said so in his answer. Instead, Abraham saw that Kolob was the star “nearest the throne of God” and the Lord told Abraham that Kolb “is near unto me.”
The Church’s Guide to the Scriptures defines “Kolob” thus: “The star nearest the throne of God.” (Abr. 3:2–3, 9).
Anyone who is interested in Kolob should read Chapter 3 of Abraham. Here is a URL for it: http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/3?lang=eng
Lastly, as Professor Bushman implies, Kolob itself is something that Mormons hardly ever think about. The important point is that God has a place in our universe
Okay, I get it. It's not a planet, it's a star. And Mormons don't think about it too much. Is that really because it's not significant, or is it because the whole notion is patently absurd?
I think it is significant and it is not absurd, however, a lot of Mormons don't talk about it or bring it up that much because it is not crucial to understand the doctrine of the Church.
It's because we have a whole lot more to do here on earth than try to figure out things that we have no way to figure out! If all I had to do was sit around and dwell on non issues I wouldn't need to be here ... as it is I have a lot of work to do to even get to the point where I have time to think about the whys of this and other issues. So ..... what can I tell you about the plan of happiness or familes sealed forever or?????? Way to much service needed to waste time.
We don't dwell on the teachings of Abraham about Kolob because there are more pertinent doctrines to concentrate on here on Earth. Here are the first 4 verses of Abraham Chapter 3:
1And I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees;
2And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;
3And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.
4And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.
"I'll take patently absurd" for 1600 Alex"
The song would be more accurate if the words were, "I'm a Mormon, and Mormons know what they believe"
How can he say it's "like looking in to a fu house mirror" when he hasn't seen the show? What he ought to have said is that is "like not looking in to a fun house mirror".
1. If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity,
Find out the generation Where Gods began to be?
2. Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end?
Me thinks the Spirit whispers, “No man has found ‘pure space,’
Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place.”
3. The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race.
4. There is no end to virtue; There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom; There is no end to light.
There is no end to union; There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood; There is no end to truth.
5. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;
There is no end to being; There is no death above.
There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;
There is no end to being; There is no death above.
This has been a fascinating and mostly polite dialog, sprinkled with the expected anti-Mormon comments here and there. I thing the interchange of ideas is great.
Those who say Prof. Bushman can't accurately comment on the Book of Mormon Musical without having seen it have not apparently read his interview carefully. He did not attempt to review what he had not seen. He was asked specific questions by CNN and he gave answers that were based solely on what he HAD seen in YouTube videos etc. from the play. He answered from his own knowledge of LDS doctrine, which is considerable. And he did it with clarity and common sense. Bravo!
I remember my parents saying that nobody expected a Catholic could become a President of the USA when John F Kennedy was running. Religion is not really a factor.
For those interested in learning the unbiased details about Mormon history and beliefs - not out of context anti-Mormon drivel, and not the watered-down PR version you get at mormon.org - check out http://www.mormonthink.com. It's written by members of the church, but thoroughly addresses many touchy issues and questions from both sides.
I was a missionary, married in the temple, held callings, and did the whole thing. I also went to the book of Mormon musical on broadway.
When it comes to these religious debates and things being said on the forum, I think about a quote by Francis Beacon 'the human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion draws all things to support and agree with it. And though there may be a greater number and weight to be found on the other side, yet these it neglects and despises...'
Most people testifying about their faith will not switch to disbelieve the Church even if all the evidences proved it wrong. It's a waste of breath on both parties when a full opinion has formed.
I believe the trick is to be open and present at all times. This moment is different then the last moment, so I have to make decisions based on the current evidences.
I have left the church because the current evidences show too many discrepancies and when these are pointed out, people turn to relying on prayer and the holy spirit. Problem is, we are emotional beings, and those emotions I felt FOR the church, are felt in the same way now AGAINST the church. Did the holy ghost change his mind, or are my emotions just following my beliefs? Following emotions and influence gets people to do incredible things which makes no logical sense (religious wars, suicides, etc). I have decided to be present and not believe emotions or beliefs without science/logic/truth supporting those emotions/beliefs.
The book of mormon musical is hilarious. Most of it was dead on in regards to accuracy of beliefs and Mormon culture. I think one major point of the musical was to point out that any belief can seem crazy, and believing God has his own planet isn't any stranger than believing God impregnated a virgin and that son rose from the grave 3 days later. All Christians and religions believe in things that are a little bit 'fairy tellish' and improbable, and they can't be proven. So in the musical there were random beliefs created and people laughed and thought 'oh how ridiculous!' The funniest part of that joke is that people laughing believe just as unlikely things, but since they are widely accepted they are considered more likely.
So everyone believes different things and most of them are bizarre to the other person. I believe we just need to open to each other, and be ok that we might be wrong. I welcome being wrong, since that's the only way I usually learn.
Lets not assume we are right. Let's make decisions based on the moment rather then relying on forged emotions and a hazy past.
Daniel; It was not the Holy Ghost that changed his mind it was you of course. We have been informed that Satan can appear as an angel of light in other words he has the power to imitate the Holy Ghost if we invite him to do so. That is not to say that others do not have that experience that is receiving the testimony of the Holy Ghost because he will bear testimony to all who ask, seek, and knock. We have the agency to change our minds, that is the reason the Savior took upon him the sins of the world and was crucified that we might have the agency to choose our course in this life. I'm sure you have heard the saying that "God will force no man to heaven" I am also sure that you have experienced the same thing I have in life and that is realizing that God will give us what we desire whether it is good or evil.
You mention also scientific proof before you will believe anything. There are many theories from the science field that are nothing more than theories in other words I think you called them fairy tales or something like that. The Holy Ghost is the only power in our mortal lives that can reveal to us the truth as it was, as it is, and as it shall be.
I've tried to post at least 5 times... why is this not posting?
Serious???? I just posted again, and it didn't work.
First of all faith is over rated. I grew up Mormon, went on a mission, "served" in a lot of leadership positions. I find it funny how Mormons, along with most religious, will use logic when it serves them and then when logic can't do the trick anymore they'll revert to "faith" telling everyone they know the truth because of a subjective "feeling" they get, and that you must not be trying hard enough or you would be convinced. Okay. That's fine and dandy, just know almost every religion uses the same logic and are convinced for the same reasons.
Secondly, I find it funny how Mormons are always skirting beliefs so they come across as "Normal" to the general public. This drives me crazy. Are you a peculiar people or not? Come on. You can't claim both. Either you're not like the world or you are like the world. Would you please just stand up for your own beliefs... even if they seem crazy. That's what I used to like about Mormons, until I found out most Mormons don't even know what they believe in. They rely on guys like Richard Bushman to write what they believe.
Take for example the "have your own planet topic." Anyone who is a Mormon has heard this quote a MILLION times: 'As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.' It's taught regularly, It's not a secret that Mormons believe they can be Gods someday. I was taught this, it was used as a motivational technique to remind me of what I could become one day. Mormons also believe that God created this planet... and this is plain and simple "Doctrine" no Mormon scholar or otherwise can deny. So what is implied??? You tell me.
Alfonso, you're right, we mormons all got together and asked Richard Bushman to speak for us. CNN provided the outlet. Thanks CNN.
Yes, I can find lots of quotes too, it doesn't mean it's doctrine/scripture. Do we believe we'll get our own planet, I have no idea, I haven't died yet but I'll let you know as soon as I find out. Do we like to speculate about such things? Yes, we're humans and I'll be the first to tell you about what I believe versus official doctrine. Will I be correct on everything I believe, no, God hasn't revealed everything...
So what if Mormon's believe they can have their own planet someday. Accept it, and be proud of it. Here is another quote: '...To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this on we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.' Joseph Fielding Smith Jr.
There are endless quotes about this... I don't need to beat a dead horse. Now what I don't want to hear is 'well that was "Prophet speculation." Serious?
This one gets me the most. Mormons believe that what comes from a prophets mouth is scripture.
How many times have you heard the speaker say the most "important text is the ensign" because that is the word of God for us today! So if the church puts so much emphasis on the words of the prophets just deny them later, brushing it off as "speculation" what really do you believe in???? Whatever they want you to believe in today? mmmm... how convenient. Reminds me of a text by George Orwell, 1984. We'll conveniently forget (or change) what past "prophets" said so that it's congruent with present "standards." Doesn't sound to me like a God who is the same yesterday, today and forever, who speaks with prophets today, just like he did in olden times. Sounds more like a God who likes to put doubt and speculation into the minds of prophets. What good is a prophet anyway if we can't even tell if his words are truth or speculation? The words of Eleanor Roosevelt actually seem more appropriate here: You'll be damned if you do (Believe), and damned if you don't (Believe).
This is really what ultimately took me away from the church. Too much speculation, to many people trying to control the way you live in the name of "goodness." If you don't do what I say then you are not a "good" person. I would argue the only "good" person is the person who accepts themselves for who they are (Human) and does their best to cultivate their own mind, foreign to pressures and threats of eternal damnation or eternal reward.
PS. Sorry about all the posts... it seems as if this was the only way the website was going to let me speak. Thank you.
Thank you for your posts as a lot of what you said is true sadly, I am a Mormon who has yet to go on a mission, I see Mormons that can't make up there mind on what to believe and what the Prophets say is Scripture or not. I for one have made up my mind on what to believe and what is right and what is wrong. When prophets speak do they make new scripture? This is the one thing I am unsure of really, I have been taught both ways so am not set one way or the other. However I do realize that scripture can be misinterpreted by anybody, including Mormons. Even when there seems to be no other way to look at it but one there most likely is some other way. Especially in the Bible because of all the different translations of it. But again sir, thank you for your posts.
I'm not a Mormon, but this show makes me like Mormons a lot more than I ever have. It really humanizes them and makes them no longer creepy.
It seems unfair to target Mormonism, every faith has certain miracles, traditions, customs etc. that look pretty weird to an outsider...imagine explaining the Ark story to a non-believer...
Well the "god of your own planet" may not be in the "scriptures" but there are plenty of widely held beliefs in Christianity that have no actual basis in the Bible, yet they are considered legitimate beliefs.
Any religious belief outside of the Bible is not Christian belief. The Bible is God's message to man. Not surprisingly, those who wish to legitimize themselves copy it.
I spent time studying with my local mormans, basicly a memeber of ther community an Orange County Sherrif nearly killed a young laguna hills man, the terrorized him for 12 years saying they would kill this young man befor loosing a pension.
When I compplained the Sheriffs tried to murder me then had the Morman try to brainwash me into being the exact oposit of Jesus.
I lived in SLC when I was 11 and 12. I was not a Mormon, and I know what it is like to be a second class citizen. I was told that there are no rules preventing non-Mormons from joining Boy Scouts, but my chances were next to nothing. I was so glad to get out of that repressive, backwards place. They can have it.
Really? for trying to warn America about how there moral valuas give such a sence of superiorty they would kill?
Although this is a factor, its not an overwhelming belief among them. And it hasn't always been like that. My mother, who grew up in the 1920's remembered going to dances at various churches in the area, including the Mormon church. She said no one ever tried to convert her in those days and the Mormon church was just like any other church.
As far as "give such a sence of superiorty they would kill" you could also say this about the Jewish religion. Look at what's happening in Palestine and Israel right now? This is really a problem with all religions as most wars in history have had something to do with religious conflict.
True, very ridiculous beliefs but you could say the same about the first and second editions of the Bible. The Mormon CULTURE has, in fact, done amazing things in transforming major parts of the American West back in a time when modern machinery was in very short supply. They have had a very strong work ethic. Their social welfare systems have halped many of their members and the missionary system for young people has made many of these Mormons more saavy of other nationalities and countries than the average U.S. citizen.
I believe that many children of Mormons don't believe all the criziness but go on supporting the religion because they love their parents who were good people and don not wish to rock the boat.
the first lie told in the bible,which is inspired by god/ 2 timothy 3:16; was from Satan the devil to Eve..." God knows that in the day that you eat from the fruit your eyes will be opened and you are bound to be 'like' god knowing good and bad."The idea about godship and own planets is very similar to the first lie.Honest examination of the scriptures and the book of Mormon reveals that the book of Mormon is clearly out of touch with the Bible.The Bible has recorded some three hundred prophecies pertaining to Jesus Christ alone,substantiated by history,archeology,the dead sea scrolls,eyewitness testimonies and manuscripts that are thousands of years old,some dating to within 50 years of Johns account of the book of Revelation.The book of Mormon a little over a hundred years old written by a man who if one does some research will find out that his lifestyle did not measure up Christian standards as set out in the bible. So you can believe what you want.I f your truly honest look at the requirements for elders at 1timothy 3:1-13,very clear and plain.Also Matthew 28:19,20, ALL CHRISTIANS SHOULD BE PREACHING,not just some kids and for a short time.This ought to get you thinking.Speaking of kids the requirements for elders mentioned earlier are definitely not met by Mormon missionaries who most don't really know the scriptures and how they are applied,let alone know what God's kingdom is.Gotta go.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
We like to leave out 17 don't we!
Genesis 3:22
22¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Is God a liar? No, He is not.
Anyone that is so easily duped by J Smith et at is not fit to lead this country.
Several Mormons that I know would be more qualified the GWB was, they'd probably do a better job too. Huntsman was the governor while I lived in Utah, and I'd say he'd do a far far FAR better job than Bachman, Palin, Trump, etc.
Hmm. Maybe we need a President like Clinton so he can sit around his office with interns under the desk.
Richard Bushman spends a lot of effort rationalizing Mormon beliefs. He wants to believe, and has found a way acceptable to him to believe. His efforts are wasted, though; Mormonism really is a scam, a religious fraud. Joseph Smith succeeded in his day because people wanted to believe him, and were willing to disregard what they did not want to believe.
"Mormon theology differs radically from conventional Christianity in locating God in time and space. He is not outside creation as traditionally believed. He is part of the physical universe, a being like the God in Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel who could touch Adam’s finger with his own if He chose."
This is an extremely important paragraph, not only for this discussion, but also for all other discussions concerning the nature of God. When skeptics attack the Christian God, they often forget this aspect of God. It makes a huge difference whether God is part of Creation, and thus subject to physical laws, or He is outside of Creation and controls the physical universe.
No god who is subject to the physical universe is the true God. That is pantheism, a false and pagan system.
"That is pantheism, a false and pagan system."
That is simply an absurd statement. Pantheists simply believe that the universe itself is "god", i.e. the universe is a rational and organized system that can be considered to be divine. While some pagans may be pantheists, most pantheists are not pagans. While I am not a pagan or a Buddhist, Buddhism is basically pantheistic and is definitely not pagan. Pantheism is no more false or true than any other religion. The one way to tell that a religion is false is when it claims to be the one true religion.
If God did something contrary to His Word, He would cease being God. His creation and his Godliness is interconnected
Richard Bushman is a serious scholar of early American history, Mormon history and Mormon theology. In the future, it might be a better use of everyone's time for the interview to center on those subjects as opposed to a musical which he hasn't seen.
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Anytime someone disagrees with LDS, they are labeled 'haters'. It's alright to disagree. It's what we as people do. As a religious person, I find it hard to take LDS seriously.
I live in Jackson County, MO and it's no paradise. I strongly doubt it ever was. I am intrigued by the stories of the beginning of LDS, namely Joseph Smith. I am fascinated that he claimed to have found some gold plates, then relayed what he translated to someone. I find it more interesting that after they had written this down, the original was hidden. How is it not convenient that Joseph Smith couldn't or wouldn't translate the same story again? One of our flaws as humans must be the desire to see to believe. It's hard to have faith. I applaud LDS members who truly believe the story of their church; it's probably the best example of faith I can think of.
I have family who are LDS members. They are constantly giving and trying to help so many people, yet they have very little themselves. It seems as though people like this are the successes of the LDS. All religions have these types of people. Yet all religions are flawed in the sense that man feels the need to speak for God or tell others that God speaks to them. Harold Camping, anyone? The entire Catholic church? Seems like anyone who self-professes to being a prophet is one somehow. Bigamy isn't a religious right, it's a stain on the history of man. Racism is just as poisonous. Oh, and as far as having a President who's a member of LDS, I don't think it matters. We've surely had worse people in that office.
I'll forgive this as ignorance, but the ENTIRE Catholic Church does not believe they in any way dialogue directly with God. Some do, but that's a rather broad generalization.
If one wants to bring up a point for clarification, they are free to do so. Yet when I, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, state my beliefs as they I believe them, I am rejected...and the same 'question/lie' is posed. Others answer as I do, and they cry out "Every Mormon DENIES their beliefs (our interpretation of their beliefs)! Will some Moron answer the questions posed???" ....and I answer them...and they agree with my answers...then they ask me what faith I belong to. I say "I'm LDS." ......do you know what they say? "No you're not...LDS don't believe what you believe in...they believe in 'THIS'"
Sigh....
Overview of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from a member of the Church.
The official name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; it is sometimes called the Mormon Church. The word Mormon comes from the Book of Mormon which, along with the Bible, is one of the sacred scripture books of the church. The church is named after Jesus Christ because we believe he established the church, approves of the church, and is its ultimate leader, through a prophet who lives in our day. The prophet communicates with God in the same ways as the prophets did in the Bible, such as Moses and Abraham. The church has the same organization that Jesus established in his church when he was alive, including prophets and apostles, and it has the priesthood of God.
If you want to learn about the church, do not look to the enemies of the church. Instead look to the church itself. The church is not a cult, does not practice or believe in polygamy, and contains no bizarre practices or doctrines. We are a Christian church even though our understanding of Christ is somewhat different from other Christian churches. We base our understanding of Christ on the scriptures, including the Bible, which we accept as coming from God. We respect that others may disagree with us and feel that they should respect that we do not agree with them.
We believe that there are three separate members of the godhead, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. They are "one" in purpose but are separate individuals who work together to do the work of God in our lives. God the Father is the originator of all things and the father of all spirits. Jesus Christ is his son, both spiritually and physically, and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit who testifies of the Father and the Son, and leads people to the truth. We have access to God through sincere prayer and personal inspiration, aided by the Holy Ghost.
God the Father and Jesus Christ have individual resurrected bodies, while the Holy Ghost has a spiritual body. The work of the Holy Ghost is to testify to us about the Father and the Son, and to spiritually reveal gospel truth to those who seek it. The members of the godhead seek the happiness of all mankind through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. The "gospel" is the good news that Jesus came to earth to save all people. Gospel truths and essential ordinances are revealed to the church through prophets of God chosen for that purpose. Joseph Smith was the prophet who restored the church in our day.
We believe that, after this life, all people will be saved in the sense that they will be resurrected. Resurrection means that the spirit and the body will be reunited in a life after this life. While all will be resurrected, not all will be able to live with the God in an exalted condition. Following this life, exaltation will only be available to worthy individuals who have accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ, received the ordinances available through his approved church, and kept the Lord's commandments.
We believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is the implementation by Jesus Christ of the Father's plan of happiness for his children. That plan was developed in the life before this life, in which we all existed as spirit children with our Heavenly parents. Lucifer, or Satan, opposed the Father's plan and wanted to impose his own plan that would force people to return to God but not give glory to God. Jesus proposed to implement the Father's plan that would give people the freedom to choose their own compliance with the Father's plan and to determine their own eternal destiny. Jesus was chosen to be the Savior under the Father's plan. Satan's plan was rejected, and he and those who chose to follow him were cast out and denied a mortal existence.
Faith is belief in things of God that are not seen with mortal eyes, and is a fundamental principle of the gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ is based upon faith that Jesus Christ is the savior of all mankind and has made available a system of exaltation for all people who qualify. We believe that we are saved by Jesus' grace, but that our situation in the hereafter depends upon our willingness to keep God's commandments and do the things upon which spiritual progress and exaltation are based. We do not save ourselves, but we do qualify ourselves for other blessings after we are saved by Jesus. Forgiveness of sins through repentance is one of the great blessings of the Savior's atonement.
As anticipated in the Father's plan, mortal life consists of hardships and challenges that give people the opportunity to grow and develop both physically and spiritually. The suffering that people experience in this life is not evidence that there is no god or of his cruelty; rather, it is evidence that this life is intended as a time of testing that will help determine each individual's situation in the eternity that follows. Either in this life or the life to come, individuals who would be comfortable living with God in the hereafter will have the opportunity to qualify themselves for eternal blessings. No one is forced to qualify, but those who don't qualify will not receive the same blessings as those who do. Such a plan is both just and merciful to all – those who qualify are blessed for their obedience, and those who don't qualify receive other blessings they are willing to receive.
As savior in the Father's plan, Jesus Christ agreed to make it possible for everyone to be resurrected. Jesus Christ's suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and his suffering and death on the cross brought to pass the atonement, which enables both the resurrection of all people and the exaltation of those who qualify. For those who choose to do so, the atonement makes it possible to repent of their disobedience to God’s commandments (sins) and to be cleansed from the effects of their sins. Through such repentance and cleansing, people can qualify themselves to live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in the life after this life. Such qualification requires being worthily and devotedly associated with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in this life.
Mercifully, the Lord also makes the blessings of salvation available to deceased individuals who had no opportunity to join the church in this life. This is done through ordinances for the dead performed in the temples of the church. Also, all little children who die before they become accountable for their actions are saved with God, as are all those whose handicaps prevent them from being accountable.
Families are very important to the church. Salvation for families, both living persons and deceased ancestors, is a primary focus of the work of the church. This work is carried on in homes, through missionary work, and in the temples of the church. The church sends missionaries throughout the world because it believes that the gospel offers peace, truth, and salvation to all people who will accept its message and follow God's commandments. The church respects the beliefs of other people and believes there is much good in the world.
Thus, the gospel of Jesus Christ is the just and fair implementation of the plan of a God who loves all his children. Each person will receive the blessings they qualify for, without discrimination or coercion. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is composed of good people striving to keep the commandments of God, who have great love for everyone, whether in the church, or in some other church, or in no church at all. No one in the church is perfect, but church members strive to do what is right and follow the example of the Savior.
If you have any question, go to LDS.org.
I grew up in Utah, a particularly Mormon part of Utah too. Growing up I obviously had a lot of exposure to them. Generally they are some of the nicest people around, and they would do anything to help you out. For the most they treat their beliefs much the same way Richard Bushman does. They generally like to poke fun at their own religion and some of it's more outlandish claims, but for the most part they believe it and it gives them some level of personal security. Honestly, I think most Mormons care more about the sense of community that the religion creates than the actual teachings. You know what? I say more power to 'em!
I'd like to have my own planet. These days this one I'm on is all screwed up and I wish I could get off and go to a different one.
Ask a Mormon for the truth and he will stutter.
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I do not stutter. As for my husband and I having our own planet some day, I have not thought about it much. It seems like a lot of responsibility to me. Tantamount to my belief is that Jesus is the Christ. He is my Savior. He came to earth to atone for the sins of mankind that we might have the opportunity to, based on our faith and good works, come into His presence and into the presence of our Heavenly Father again. All the other rhetoric, conceptual misinterpretations of Church cannon is meaningless in the face of Our Savior's love and sacrifice for us. Sometime people "can't see the forest for the trees."
I am a Mormon. And I believe! But that belief has come from years of study, prayer and really living the teaching of Jesus Christ. I think if you were to look at my life, or in fact the lives of many other Mormons that you know you would discover a group of honest, hardworking, happy people who have developed a close and lasting relationship with God. This group of people will be the first to admit that they do not know everything, but the things they do know are enough to make them believe in the things they do not.
While some search, find, understand and move toward the full light of truth, you "commenters" spend your time exchanging words that only lead to dead ends. Go to the words of the one eyewitness of the visitation of God the Father and Jesus Christ, the one source that most "researchers" refuse to consider, the only one that really counts. Read the words of Joseph Smith from the Doctrine and Covenants.
I do believe that Jesus loves each and everyone of His creation, namely humans. I also believe that He gave us His Word, His instructions on how to live our lives and His requirements on how to enter into His heaven. He also gave us His admonition in Isaiah 43:10 of: "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I AM he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." This verse, only if you believe in the Bible, lays to rest–discards the idea of other gods being formed. Amen?
I am not a Mormon. I saw the Book of Mormon on Broadway the other night and it left me with a very good impression of Mormons and their faith. It pretty much captured exactly what Mr. Bushman says in his interview above – about not finding rational explanations for the book, but that overall it reflects something noble and good. Elder Price is not the main preacher of Mormonism in the play. The main preacher is his companion who knows very little about the actual Book of Mormon, but manages to convey through his own made up stories how the community should work together and treat each other with respect and civility in order to honor God and acheive paradise. It's a very uplifting message and if they had copies of the Book of Mormon outside the theater, I probably would have taken one and perused it.
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I do not see where Prof. Bushman answered where Joseph Smith said the Garden of Eden was?
I am a Mormon. I am an African living in Africa. I joined the Church a little more than a decade ago yet after having read a book talking down Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I understand people might be shocked by the Church's position about priesthood and black people. But there are a lot of us here who aren't. Suffice it to say that the teachings of the Church and of all the prophets have blessed and still bless our lives. We are grateful for that. I don't know about that show but we are grateful for the young missionaries who came here to teach us. I look at what the world offers as alternative ideas to bring peace and happiness but I must say nothing come close in efficiency than restored Gospel.
Hello everyone. I have found a lot of your comments very interesting. I have been very blessed over the years to have met people from many different countries and from all walks of life and have been able to learn from most of them.
I am grateful for this because I realise that I do not know everything, and probably never will all the time I am here.
But this much I do feel, except we become as little children we are not really going to learn too much about our God.
Little children can teach us all so much of what we as adults have forgotten. I hope that you all have nice day.
Here is a link to an article I wrote on taking a minute to think before we disparage the each others religious beliefs.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/8219735/ben_ferguson_goes_to_far.html?cat=9
Tethys 527: I addressed that in my first comment here. I explained there why I think it's objectifying regardless of the content
I have trouble understanding what the big deal is. Its a parody, and as a parody it makes fun of different things, in this case religion. Big Love is a better example, they take a much more controversal role with the Mormon taopic
It's been so very good, hasn't it Jocelyn?I agree with your descriptions of the Feasts so far... I can't wait to see what the Father has for us this week... He is speaking to me more and more each day and his provision is unfathomable.
Can you help me. My shower screens have been damaged from use of chemicals used by a well known franchise cleaning company. These checmicals leave a film on the glass (and tiles and floors). I have tried to get teh film off without success. My shower screen now looks permanently dirty. It really is a black and white situation.
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